LGBT Pavee Support Group

A forum for LGBTQ members of the Irish Travelling and Roma Community, those that support there right of expression and wish to construct a way to mediate between the community, culture and sexual identity.Feel free to chat, commune, seek and give advice.
 
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 Would you Adopt?

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Karavan_casey
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PostSubject: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 12:34 pm

Im not anywhere near the personal space to even consider this but I'm wondering what my fellow buers and feins think about adoption... family being so important to us all would you adopt if you could?
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 1:34 pm

in a heart beat. however i wouldnt adopt untill i was in a financialy secure position and have a solid foundation as a home. being a gay parent is easy, being the kid to gay parents is hard so a good family structure is needed first.//
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 1:54 pm

Would you bring your child up with traditional traveller values around other travellers? Id say that that would be very difficult for anyone and the child... people can be cruel and our own community aint no different
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 1:56 pm

i think it is important to remember that we need to pick and choose which values are best for us, most values dont even correspond with our lifestyles here. when a child is involved then you need to put him or her befpre all value systems. and allowing your child to mix with any group in society comes down to what that group is like and how will they treat your child,.,good question though.,
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:02 pm

not really gettin the answer tho LOL i take it as a see what ever works best for the child when it or does happen. Cool
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:10 pm

basicly, you said would you bring the child up with traditional travellers values and around travellers,.,

i said, (paraphrasing here) it comes down to your own choice about who you let your child mix with. being a gay parent would mean a lot of hassle from other kids, traveller or other.

on the point of values, how many values are even relevant to gay travellers... not many.,.
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:14 pm

Many many of or values are relivent to us., There not just rules or expectation of action but they support an ideal behind them and while some of them are ubdoubtedly of an old world theres a lot that still has a place here in the now.
Theres travellers by blood but theres also travellers by life and living
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:18 pm

right, can u list a few, not being confrontational here but i would like to know what values are relevant. and also, seen as were gay, it does stop alot of values affecting us, i doubt a dowry will be needed for anyone here, one example there.,.,

and as for travellers by blood, we all are,,except for settled people who travell in the summer.,.,

and as for life and living, if you were to use traveller values as a prime example of a traveller, then im afraid you will have very little actual travellers.,., woods from the trees on this one,.,.,
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:23 pm

na not so, sounds like your basing your main understanding on travellers on actual travel... how much are we losin
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:28 pm

i am basing all my knowledge on the fact i have travelled, i am of traveller blood, i mix with travellers, i can see when a groups traditions are deteriorating, i can see when values are not anywhere near what they once were, and i can see that the changing times are bringing a change to the value system,. being gay and travellers values are two seperate things im afraid, i wish there were values for gay travellers as it would give us a sense of belonging and inclusion, but as it stands the values are for those that are seen as "valuable" by straight travellers. maybe in ten years people will start to treat gay travellers equally and then some values might be relevant... only my oppinion of course and im far from being the right person to talk on values as my own values are based on my happiness. untill the day others care about what i see as valuable ideology then i wll hold my values for me and my like minded peers...
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sun May 30, 2010 6:34 am

Sorry if I come across very agressive on here or something. Not intended.

I get where your coming from but i disagree one a lot of it (repectfully so) I dont see my sexuality having any lessing impact on what i can take from the tradition i was born inta, yes we need to pick and choose the values that correspond with us but very little dont when ya look behind the scenes.

Like a dowry which id say had very little to do with money and goods but more to do with ensuring that people got a good start in married life. With cicil partnership on the way this could still be the same and if not regardless of marriage the essence behind a dowry is still there – in the importance of helpin our own get a good foot ahead.

The values of importance of family, respect for the old, strict cleanliness (despite the images given by the media and some of our visual members.) moral codes were ther for a reason, respect the body, respect other peoples bodies, dont sleep around as it can be disvaluing to your sense of self, dont steal, the blessing of a hards day work, spirituality, loyalty, the power of music, the right of hospitality...

I dont see how being gay disconnects me or you from the reasons behind the old ways simply because were gay. Id hate to think my sexuality or anyone elses would us a step away from our inheritance.
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Karavan_casey
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sun May 30, 2010 7:02 am

I really like this forum for posts like the above, 1of and Minkar even though your opinions differ I really like the way this place lets all of us have a say. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes to big things I find I need to talk things over with others, to sieve out how I really feel.
Sometimes the opinions of others can be a good sounding board for our own.

Our tradition is a very disperse one with many different lineages carrying very different aspects of it, if I had a child I would want them to know from the places of strength and courage they came from, from people we refused to stand down silently in the night of aggressive change, share with them all the positives that the culture had to offer but ultimately let them decide. For me being a Traveller is more then blood and even if that's very different for others that's something id like to be able to pass on too.

I don't know how my life will go or how it will change but I'd like to think that someday I might be in the personal and secure place that I could bring up a child, in the most loving and cherishing way possible.
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1of-dem
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sun May 30, 2010 8:17 pm

lol, no one thinks your being aggressive..well i certainly dont, and i deffo dont take offence to you voicing your oppinion.

im not going to dissect each one of your points lol, which is what i was gonna do when you replied the last time, sometimes i get to arguementative and cause aggro lol. but i will say this, i am really glad you hold a lot of stock in travellers values, i really do. but i am one of those realists im afraid, and i cannot think with sparkling thoughts of an ideal situation. in other words, yes it would be great if certain traits continued on for the gay pavee, however lets be real. not gonna happen anytime soon.

all those things you listed out as values, im afraid to say that each and every human being has a need to follow those, their basic human morals, like come on , cleanliness lol,.not taking away from what your saying there but just letting you know that those values you named out are followed by most decent people, traveller or other. you dont need to have traveller background for those. also you seem to have left out the most important thing to most travellers, religion, and we all know how Some travellers see homosexuals in regards religion. (not meaning spirituality there by the way)

now i need to mention one or two of the things you mentioned, right to hospitality,,,,is that with or without your boyfriend,,will travellers be hospitatble to you with a gay man next to you,

will travellers respect you more for respecting your boyfriends body, or will they be repulsed by it,,,
(not saying we need to be respected by anyone for such a basic compulsory act)

as for the dowry thing lol,,well i started that one so i better finish it lol,,.i sincerely doubt that any traveller man will be giving his son or daughter money to start a life with a gay man or lesbian, come on now, realisticly please...future maybe, but then again time travel might come first..seriously like,,come on lol,.no way.,not any traveller i know..

your quote ..."dont sleep around as it can be disvaluing to your sense of self" ...what would there take on sleeping with men be..also being realistic here,, the majority of travellers bask in the glory of sleeping with settled girls,,ask any straight traveller how they feel about it lol,., again just being realistic..

finally lol,, i am totally with you when you say being gay does not disconnect us from traveller ways of old,.,however how many gay travellers were there in the days of old,.im just sayoing as gay travellers is a reletivly new thing to our community, outspoken gay issues i mean, it is time to evaluate what values actually correspond with us.,. untill people accept that gay travellers have the same right to being valued as a living element within our culture, why should i hold stock in values or traditions that are only there for the straight travellers...

now coming back to the actual topic here that casey started.. i agree with you casey, bringing up a child in the most loving and cherishing way is the main priority, can anyone here honestly say that bringing a child up as a staunch traveller is the best way to go, as being a stauch traveller we hold to much emphasis on how being straight and having kids the biblical way is the right way to go,. i think that yes we have some remarkble traditions and traits we could pass on to our kids, and some of our ways and antics are charming...but when it comes down to it, we need to have a liberal, open minded and more new age approach to our home in order to give the child the right education towards being a child of an unorthidox family.,.,

again only my oppinion guys..,and minkar i also respect your thoughts and feel free to say whatever, its not aggressive when its progressive,..
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minkar
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Mon May 31, 2010 7:41 am

Obviously being a traveller means drastic different things to both of us, which is grand but makes sense seeing as our opinions are so different. Id say your more of a fatalist then a realist as not only is life not so black and white many pavees are INCREADIBLY supportive of the gay cause and while striuctly in not having a developed place in traditon it doesnt mean we dont now or cant continue too.

Much like many of our disabled members they were thin on the ground a few years back as death rates were much higher and physical challenges took there toll but they are never the less a very beautiful part of our community. Not to reduce people to objects but like transit vans too, while the generalisation of travel was there the new modifications and growths came along, people adapted.

Disagree with the dowry thing too as it seems a very jaded world to live in if ya think everyone is so severly anti lgbt. My parents might be shocked but id know id have there help and support if i was to start a life with someone.

“until people accept that gay travellers have the same right to being valued as a living element within our culture, why should i hold stock in values or traditions that are only there for the straight traveller”

It sounds like you dont which is more then a pity as our tradition is a beautiful one and belongs to each on of us regardless of who we happen to fancy. Having value in it shouldnt really have anything to do with other people its to do with yourself and even though I may be misunderstood i trust in the many strong postive people in it and my own sense of having a deep afinity and place there.

Kinda taking this thread wayyy of course as its about adoption, if we want to discuss things like this we might want to open enough thread or go to private mail as it might be tempting people away from talking about the adoption question/

Great thread cassy!
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Jonnie
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:27 pm

I love my goshuns I cant see life without them so if i wasnt married and life was different I would definetly want to adopt
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Hanu Fein
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PostSubject: Re: Would you Adopt?   Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:38 pm

Genuinely if i was in the position to I would consider it. Until then ill continue being the best uncle I can be Smile
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